Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

A place to list research sources and to ask for help in researching all maritime matters

Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby fitter » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:39 pm

I used to regard LLoyds Registers as almost infallible but have found that whilst they are NEARLY so they are not REALLY so. Mirimar is an excellent, and one of the most valuable, resources for ship research and will improve as time goes on, but even Mirimar gets it wrong sometimes, so you are right to say that "sometimes it can be really hard tracing a ship." When first researching the history of Doxford engine works I was looking for records about Northumberland Shipbuilding Co. that bought Doxfords out in 1919. Frustrated that of all places, Tyne and Wear archives search room didn't appear to have any information about N.S.C. I aksed an archivist who confidently told me that he thought that it must be because there was no such company on the Tyne had I tried the Wear or Blyth !!! Thankfully the W.S.S. has been blessed not just with enthusiasts but with many people who have as much interest in accuracy and detail as the subject matter, and their material is approaching infallibility. Sadly archivists, GENERALLY, have LITTLE interest in shipbuilding and marine engineering and I think are intimidated or embarrased when questioned because they feel they should be able to answer enquiries. Sadder still, they have little enthusiam and many times both I and our deceased (mutual?) friend Mike B., have been infuriated by dismissive responses to genuine enquiries. T&W do seem to have grasped this a bit and Colin Boyd has been an enormous help to the DEFA group, as has his replacement and Mr Clayson and Ms Boyd have been genuinely interested in maritime research. This is all the more reason why those of us that remain, and are diminishing significantly in number every year, must do whatever we can to accurately record the missing details of material, as yet uncatalogued, in museums and archives. A few years ago I was invited to salvage as much of what I could of Doxford Engine Works documents from Kincaid,s as a matter of urgenecy, before it went to skips for destruction. It was heartbreaking to drive past a long line of skips at Kincaids filled and waiting to be filled with all sorts of maritime records. I took two transit vanloads away but was saddened to see literally tons more awaiting disposal. Tons of stuff from Swans, NEM, Wallsend Slip., Hawthorns, Clarks etc was just abandoned. Thinking I had done well to save some, I presented some of my Doxford material to the LOCAL STUDIES dept at Sunderland Library and then took it 45 miles back home --- they didn't want any of it. Did I know how much they had 'downstairs' uncatalogued due to lack of resources, ( not to mention lack of expertise and enthusiam by staff), why didn't I try writing to Greenwich N.M.M. to see if they would have it !!!!?
Although digressing, I find that self interest is also a hinderance to accuaracy and excellence:
Sadly, all to often, the museums sacrifice excellence on the altar of self interest: A classic case is that of the Doxford J9 prototype model that has been removed from Sunderland, the birthplace of Doxfords, and whose toolroom staff made the model, the place where the only two nine cylinder engines were made, and it is at Newcastle because it makes their place more interesting. It should never have been removed, it should be returned but museums are too self interested.
Those of us who know and love maritime history will be ignored and dismissed by those jockeying for position, pride, and prestige. So we must persue accuracy, attention to detail, proper management of information and exhibits before those who know only self interest fragment and dispose of collections given in good faith for public, not personal benefit.
NEM could well prove to be a valuable resource in recording maritime history. The outstanding knowledge and enthusiam of members is one thing museums and archives lack. The spirit of the membership in freely sharing what they have and know without any material reward is something museums and archives will never have. Its members will serve the public interest for motives too high to be understood by the rank and file that shuffle in and out of archives, whose motives are primarily monetary, directly or indirectly. So I hope that the site continues to grow and that the good natured responses that I have so far encountered will be a permenant feature. thanks for taking the trouble to respond to an comparatively irrelevant comment.
tom
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Re: Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby teesships » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:20 pm

Tom,

I have taken the liberty of splitting your interesting post into a new topic. Hope you don't mind.

Without going in to detail, I think you do speak for all ship/maritime enthusiasts!

Here on Teesside (if I can use that general, now "old" description?) over the last couple of years some Hartlepool members of the Teesside Ship Society have been assisting Hartlepool Museum Services to sort and properly catalogue, for instance, a large number of ship design drawings from Wm. Gray's. In addition, other members undertook a modicum of research into career details for their collection of ship photographs.

However, the main point is this work would not have been done if our members had not volunteered ... and if the Museum Service had not received funding for their project! I have to say our Ship Society did thereby benefit financially.

Having said all that, they also planned to redesign their website details on Gray built ships. I must admit I've not checked recently on any progress, but I believe they did run into difficulties. This is where your comment about the knowledge of ship enthusiasts comes into play. In my opinion, the (professionally produced) design of their Gray website is too unwieldy and not at all user-friendly. As far as I know they have not deviated much from this, despite being informed that much of the information now exists elsewhere on the excellent TEESBUILT site (viewtopic.php?f=117&t=8002#p14711) which provides the detail in a simple, straightforward manner, easy to find and see. All completed (for the whole of Tees and Hartlepool shipyards) mainly by George inside two years (or less!).

Anyway, 'nuff said on this (for now??)!

Ron
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Re: Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby magoonigal » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:36 am

We are lucky in many ways that so much material is becoming avaiable on the web. In addition to Mirimar the second most useful source of information is the on-line copies of the Mercantile Navy list. They are worth their weight in GOLD!

But they have drawbacks, in that they give "Place of Build" but not by whom..... and you cannot trace a vessel if it changes its name...
Another site I use a lot has a digital version of Lloyds Houseflags and Funnels.

As well as that I have a good collection of Lloyds Register's going back to 1924 and a full set of Marine News.

We can but try!!!!!!!

:ugeek:
Paul Hood. + WSS Tyneside Branch Hon Sec.
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Re: Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby fitter » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:55 pm

Thanks for replies. I do think that a number of us have now woken up to the fact that time is running out if we are to capture what knowledge and experience remains amongst those with a maritime interest. Your experience with Hartlepool museum is an encouragement. Tyne & Wear are trying to do what they can within the limits of resources. The DEFA at T&W and Beamish has been an important development. Yet squabbling appears to have raised its ugly head and self interest threatens to sabotage the years of sound work done at Beamish. Sunderland are lamentable when it comes to local maritime history. Entertaining the public there has priority over recording and preserving the ship related history of the town. It was the non existence of one complete record of engines built at Doxfords that 'propelled' me into compiling my own.
Perhaps a politely worded document from those on this site or the equivalent in the form of a posting, addressed to museums and archives could move them towards a co-ordinated approach with standardised formats for documents like WSS use and a means for "inputs" from people that have knowledge, memories and records that they would like to share. A lot is lost by each doing their own thing. Several men I know personally have instructed relatives never to give anything they leave to museums for fear that it will be thereby 'lost' forever. The ideal would be a North East Maritime Museum where all the records could be held in one place where volunteers could meet regularly. Mondays could be Hartlepool day, Tuesday the Tyne, etc. Of course it is easy for enthusiasts to dream about their interests or be frivolous about it, and the practical reality, inevitably money, can not be ignored. But much is wasted for want of practical people who really can get the attention of those so heavenly minded that they are of little earthly use. "Where there is no vision, the people perish." I have an unused Doxford engine piston in my garage that I brought from Kincaid and thought it would make an interesting addition to the engine at Beamish. I am, it appears, mistaken. Neither Beamish or Sunderland are remotely interested. Indifference "reigned" and they all got wet.
Yet whenever I have been involved in maritime research I have always found people with amazing knowledge and experience who have a delightful willingness to share. Some with specialist knowledge (take tugs as an example), that would be delighted to contribute to the collection and preservation of information are themselves taken for granted. The reality is that we ourselves are resources that all to soon will be spent. How soon it will be thirty years since engine production ceased on Wearside. How quickly the next thirty will pass. We desperately need a voice to plead the case for a co-ordinated approach to maritime history. NEM is gathering interest, thankfully. Where else can anyone sitting in their own homes see so much about the North East maritime history and be in contact with like minded people? Yet the museums don't seem to have grasped the potential of internet based galleries and forums. Many like me have to travel at least fort miles to a museum, find and pay for parking before a day of research can begin. DEFA have a website, its a start, but what a brilliant website we could have if reactionary stuffed shirts who seem to think that information deposited freely by the public in good faith and the firm belief that it would be made available to the public, is theirs, was made it easily accessible on line. I, for one, would be happy to go and scan a thousand or so photos in a day for a museum photographic website. But museums have an eye on the earning potential of things freely given to them. A number of years ago I had to pay £8 each for two copies of ship photos 8" x 10." For another I had to pay for the production of a negative, then the cost of the print, but the negative remained the property of the museum who also charged 50 pence each for A4 Photocopies when the newsagent over the road was charging 8 pence. The miracle we need is a change in the mindset of the people responsible for all that has been FREELY DONATED to the museums. But God is much too busy with earth's other problems to be troubled by maritime enthusiasts and in any case we shouldn't ask him to do what we can do ourselves! I'd cut him in with an article about Noah if he'd help us :lol: For now I am delighted to have made the acquaintance of NEM and a bunch of blokes that share freely things that they need not. I have had an enormous amount of pleasure from the site so far. Thanks to everyone that contributes to it.
Tom
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Re: Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby magoonigal » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:34 pm

Paul Hood. + WSS Tyneside Branch Hon Sec.
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Re: Ship Research

Postby Whickham » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:53 pm

A small but valuable collection is the Marine Technology Special Collection. Much of this is available for BROWSING and even, dare I say, TOUCHING.

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/marine/facilities/ ... /index.htm

This is a couple of rooms in a turret of the Armstrong Building at Newcastle University. Access is by appointment only but has some amazing artifacts. I have been there a couple of times and the lead figures behind the collection seem to be Ian Buxton and Brian Newman who saw their industry disappearing before their eyes without so much as a wimper from the archivists. I get the feeling that they raided empty office blocks and disposal skips to try and preserve some very important documents. The growing collection was housed in a number of temporary locations around the city but has now found a home at the University. Access is via what in my day would be called the Naval Architecture Department and then up some fairly narrow stairs. I guess the two rooms would be difficult to use for much else in today's climate of access to all physical abilities.

As an example of the sorts of documents that they have rescued, there are a couple of very large format "books" that record all the Hughes Bolckow scrap yard activity and a similar "book" that records all the breaking up of the Olympic at Jarrow down to individual items of furniture and box of screws.

There are also collections of Registers and learned journals, also many of the monthly industry journals. Plus books galore.
Dave
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Re: Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby magoonigal » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:55 pm

John Dobson, who Tom will probably know also had a hand in sorting out the Material, much of which was stored in a warehouse on Team Valley.
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Re: Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby fitter » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:38 pm

Didn't know about the Marine technology collection. Must go and see it.
Know OF John Dobson don't know him personally.
Illustrates just how fragmented maritime records are. All over our region there are excellent depositories that may never be able to be brought under one roof for lots of reasons, but even if they can't be merged in part or whole it would be an excellent thing to have an online " catalogue" of collections and details of access, and, or a regularly (annual?) updated paper catalogue. Even private archives like mine could be included where owners agree and the access to information would benefit here and now as well as hereafter.
Could NEM have an online directory of resources?
Thanks for these postings.
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Re: Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby teesships » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:30 pm

Well, NEM has made a start with the section Online Resources at: viewforum.php?f=117

Ron
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Re: Ship Research (was DUN HUANG)

Postby fitter » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:21 pm

Oh dear, I see it now :oops:
It's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are an idiot, rather than open your mouth and prove them right.
I keep thinking I've learned that lesson, but see I still have some way to go.
Thank you
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